- There was a lot of anxiety about where to put the tub, specifically indoors vs. outdoors. While I'm sure there are examples of people putting it inside their homes, based on Martin's anxiety around location pre-purchase and what he's learned now that he is using it, it seems like putting it outside is the best solution for most (more space, issues with water flying all over the place, very noisy all the time, etc.). So would the company be able to reduce a lot of anxiety around the purchase by emphasizing / focusing only on outdoor use (i.e., take the idea of putting it inside out of the equation so that it doesn't clutter the potential customer's mind)? Along these lines, would Martin have purchased it earlier (shortened his timeline) if he had only thought about it for outdoor use -- i.e., would he have purchased it while in the previous home he was in (he talked about it being smaller than his current home, but maybe it had adequate outdoor space for a tub/tank)?
- I like the idea of the rental option discussed here in the comments. Agree that there seems to be a lot of social anxiety around the purchase (if I can't handle it, it will be embarrassing having to ship it back and telling people in my network that I failed).
- Related to the "what if I'm a failure / can't handle it" anxiety ... What about shifting the mindset from the outcome being binary (either I can handle it or I'm a failure) to realizing that there are "middle grounds" and that you can make adjustments to ensure "success":
> It sounded like the tub that Martin bought has a temperature adjustment feature. I'd been picturing tubs that are full of lots and lots of ice, plus a little water, so I hadn't considered that you could control the temperature of the water. So the company could point out that you can set it at 60 degrees and still get value from it. Then as you get used to it, you could move it down to 55 degrees, and so on.
> Similar to what was mentioned in the recap video is the idea that you don't have to start at 3 minutes immediately but instead could shoot for 30 seconds for a few days initially, then 45 seconds, and so on. The company could mention tips and tricks for getting going with the new cold plunge tub.
> Are there things you can wear -- a wetsuit "shorty" or something to cover your feet and hands or whatever that you can use to start with, and then gradually remove over time? If so, the company could suggest these options -- and perhaps sell them too.
- Similar to the above, it seems like there's an opportunity for the company to become the leader / thought leader around cold plunge tubs/tanks. In addition to content related to where to put the tub, how to set it up, etc., they could provide info like what is mentioned above in terms of getting going with cold plunges (and how to work your way up to longer and colder plunges), they could give examples of people of all walks of life who have "succeeded" and how (perhaps they already do this via testimonials), and they could even have a place within an app to record times and temps for each plunge, share with others, get encouragement from "coaches" or experts/advisors, etc. This might also be an opportunity for an independent source if the companies selling the tubs/tanks don't do this.
- I did catch myself "judging" for a moment when Martin talked about the issue of rain and cold and wind while being in the tub, thinking that it shouldn't really matter because you're going to be so miserable and so focused on the cold water you're in that you won't really notice the weather / it won't make a difference! But then I realized what matters is what his anxiety is around the colder / bad weather being an issue -- not how I think about it (plus, I know nothing about this, having never done a cold plunge, so why I do think I know better?!?!). So turning it around, I thought about how the company could show people who do cold plunges outside in bad weather environments talking about how it doesn't matter what the weather is (assuming it really doesn't, which may be a big assumption!). Additionally, the company could provide tips for how to get in and out of the tub in cold/bad weather environments in a way that doesn't add to the misery (gear to wear, heat lamps nearby, placing it near walls or using things to create wind barriers, etc.).
- One thing I wanted to learn more about was what was going on in Martin's life at the time that he was vacationing and made the purchase. He mentioned having a child. He also mentioned that he liked the idea of the cold plunge because it has "lots of benefits" in a "very small amount of time", "making it fit with my life." Was he finding that he had a lot less time to exercise / focus on his health because of family life? Was he busier elsewhere? Was there something going on with his health that was causing him to focus on it more at that moment? Why did he feel the need at that point in time to push his health to the next level? It seemed like you provided opportunities for him to talk about that, so there might not be anything there, but was curious about this while watching the interview.
- Liked your idea of focusing initially on going after the middle / bottom of the funnel people -- those like Martin who already bought into the idea of cold exposure / cold plunges as having health benefits -- and trying to shorten their timeline / get them to purchase, rather than focusing on trying to convince people that cold plunges are a great idea.
> “So would the company be able to reduce a lot of anxiety around the purchase by emphasizing / focusing only on outdoor use...?”
I think there’s an opportunity here, but it’s coupled with another anxiety related to having to do this outside in the cold weather (will cold weather make this thing even worse?). Your idea has a lot of merit: “Almost everyone puts these outside, and don’t worry about weather - here’s why it won’t matter …”
Your additional comment here nails it: “Additionally, the company could provide tips for how to get in and out of the tub in cold/bad weather environments in a way that doesn't add to the misery (gear to wear, heat lamps nearby, placing it near walls or using things to create wind barriers, etc.).” Exactly!
> “It sounded like the tub that Martin bought has a temperature adjustment feature. I'd been picturing tubs that are full of lots and lots of ice, plus a little water, so I hadn't considered that you could control the temperature of the water. So the company could point out that you can set it at 60 degrees and still get value from it. Then as you get used to it, you could move it down to 55 degrees, and so on.”
There are a few different comment threads going on here where folks are talking about making sure that we don’t stress out about getting every answer to every question in a single interview - it’s okay if we’re debriefing and we realize that we didn’t dig into something! This is such a great example of that. Throughout the entire entire conversation with Martin it never occurred to me to ask whether he could reduce the anxiety around possibly returning it by just increasing the temperature to something the he could bare. I think this tells us two things.
1) Martin talked a lot about the anxiety around the return, and this idea never came up, so I don’t think he saw it as an option.
2) In subsequent interviews, if the anxiety around returns/stigma/etc comes up, we should find a way to ask about this, hopefully without introducing the idea and biasing the interview. Something like, “are you thinking about what will make you feel successful here? A certain number of plunges per week? A certain duration? A certain temperature?” Even with that question we’re introducing some concepts, but if we worked at it we could probably get into the topic without biasing things too much.
> “One thing I wanted to learn more about was what was going on in Martin's life at the time that he was vacationing and made the purchase.” Another great area to explore! Did his mindset shift while on vacation? Also, it feels like health and wellness is his hobby (since he’s a personal friend I can cheat and confirm this). So did he just have more time to spend on his hobby since he was vacationing and away from work? All great topics to dive into.
This is another one where I bagged a lot of pushes - triggers like the recommendation from a trusted party (first the workshop, then Wim Hoff, then Rhonda, and finally his coach who all pushed to say this is a thing he needs). There was also the push from the time factor - "when I'm running out of time to get this delivered before the weather changes", coupled with the pull of "so I can build a habit of using it before it's miserable outside".
I wonder whether there's a boost if they changed the business model to renting cold plunges vs selling - this would make it less of a challenge for Martin to persuade his wife to let him buy it, and the high anxiety of admitting failure and getting them to come back to take the plunge makes it a sticky product. To me it felt more like he was worried about admitting failure amongst the network of coach, Rhonda, and others he would have told "I'm getting a cold plunge and committing to this lifestyle" more than calling the firm that sold him the product. All that social anxiety makes this sticky, even if he didn't use the product once he rented it.
I did a quick google for these things and the imagery shows serene people in plunge pools in natural settings - I bet they could drive more sales showing normal people using these in home/garden settings to make it easier to imagine the tub sitting in a home like your own.
The rental idea is fantastic. Emotionally and socially there's a lot of contrast between "I tried it and decided that it wasn't for me" (what renting allows for), and "I fully invested in it and failed." (the all-in nature of buying).
I think in this space (and I'd want to run more interviews and really dig in here) that the commitment is less about the financial spend and more about the "social expense" of telling all your health and fitness clique that you're "taking the plunge" and then having to admit that you called the firm up and asked them to take their pool back because you weren't able to "hack it".
As a result I think you can reduce the pain of buying by making it cheap to commit to, knowing full well the real commitment is to this new lifestyle (which they will loathe backing out of).
From listening to Martin I'd imagine he'd rather carry on paying to rent a plunge pool and not use it than to have to admit he gave up this to his coach and others.
It also points to an opportunity for the company to create networking spaces/interact and engage with the cold plunge community on Reddit etc as there's a lot of social pressure around this purchase.
I get the idea of accelerating people who are actively looking by better addressing anxieties - there are some funnels which seem to be extra long in time (barista-style espresso machines, for example, take years). I also see that we can do better marketing and help people to progress from passive to active looking by addressing pushes we know they have.
One thing I was questioning myself about when doing research was: should I spend more time on the outcomes they experienced (expected & unexpected) after purchase? Because I need those research items to retain existing customers, to actually help them form a new habit. Oftentimes in Jobs, we focus on the moment of purchase and the forces leading to it to then improve the funnel. But every interview can also generate a lot of data to improve my existing customer relationships and to drive retention. But it is very hard to capture both sides of the story in one interview.
How do you see this? Were there projects where you maybe focused more on the actual experience than on the timeline and forces? Or did you maybe split your interviewee group based on that given focus? Or is this a strategy discussion before research?
I think you have it right. Most people that I talk to feel like they lack demand-side tools that they can reach for to help them build something new and get people to initially adopt it (switching). In comparison, it feels like there is an abundance of techniques that we have for understanding satisfaction of existing customers (customer success feedback, support team feedback, satisfaction surveys, etc). Because of that, I tend to put a lot of emphasis on switching in the interviews that I share. Personally I just refocus the interview based on the problem that I'm working on. If I need to figure out adoption it's all about the forces and timeline of the initial purchase. If I want to know more about value after the purchase I move through that part quickly (first 15 minutes or so), and then move onto the post-purchase behavior. When do they reach for the product and when do they ignore it an reach for something else.
Awesome interview, Chris!
Lots of thoughts swirling around ...
- There was a lot of anxiety about where to put the tub, specifically indoors vs. outdoors. While I'm sure there are examples of people putting it inside their homes, based on Martin's anxiety around location pre-purchase and what he's learned now that he is using it, it seems like putting it outside is the best solution for most (more space, issues with water flying all over the place, very noisy all the time, etc.). So would the company be able to reduce a lot of anxiety around the purchase by emphasizing / focusing only on outdoor use (i.e., take the idea of putting it inside out of the equation so that it doesn't clutter the potential customer's mind)? Along these lines, would Martin have purchased it earlier (shortened his timeline) if he had only thought about it for outdoor use -- i.e., would he have purchased it while in the previous home he was in (he talked about it being smaller than his current home, but maybe it had adequate outdoor space for a tub/tank)?
- I like the idea of the rental option discussed here in the comments. Agree that there seems to be a lot of social anxiety around the purchase (if I can't handle it, it will be embarrassing having to ship it back and telling people in my network that I failed).
- Related to the "what if I'm a failure / can't handle it" anxiety ... What about shifting the mindset from the outcome being binary (either I can handle it or I'm a failure) to realizing that there are "middle grounds" and that you can make adjustments to ensure "success":
> It sounded like the tub that Martin bought has a temperature adjustment feature. I'd been picturing tubs that are full of lots and lots of ice, plus a little water, so I hadn't considered that you could control the temperature of the water. So the company could point out that you can set it at 60 degrees and still get value from it. Then as you get used to it, you could move it down to 55 degrees, and so on.
> Similar to what was mentioned in the recap video is the idea that you don't have to start at 3 minutes immediately but instead could shoot for 30 seconds for a few days initially, then 45 seconds, and so on. The company could mention tips and tricks for getting going with the new cold plunge tub.
> Are there things you can wear -- a wetsuit "shorty" or something to cover your feet and hands or whatever that you can use to start with, and then gradually remove over time? If so, the company could suggest these options -- and perhaps sell them too.
- Similar to the above, it seems like there's an opportunity for the company to become the leader / thought leader around cold plunge tubs/tanks. In addition to content related to where to put the tub, how to set it up, etc., they could provide info like what is mentioned above in terms of getting going with cold plunges (and how to work your way up to longer and colder plunges), they could give examples of people of all walks of life who have "succeeded" and how (perhaps they already do this via testimonials), and they could even have a place within an app to record times and temps for each plunge, share with others, get encouragement from "coaches" or experts/advisors, etc. This might also be an opportunity for an independent source if the companies selling the tubs/tanks don't do this.
- I did catch myself "judging" for a moment when Martin talked about the issue of rain and cold and wind while being in the tub, thinking that it shouldn't really matter because you're going to be so miserable and so focused on the cold water you're in that you won't really notice the weather / it won't make a difference! But then I realized what matters is what his anxiety is around the colder / bad weather being an issue -- not how I think about it (plus, I know nothing about this, having never done a cold plunge, so why I do think I know better?!?!). So turning it around, I thought about how the company could show people who do cold plunges outside in bad weather environments talking about how it doesn't matter what the weather is (assuming it really doesn't, which may be a big assumption!). Additionally, the company could provide tips for how to get in and out of the tub in cold/bad weather environments in a way that doesn't add to the misery (gear to wear, heat lamps nearby, placing it near walls or using things to create wind barriers, etc.).
- One thing I wanted to learn more about was what was going on in Martin's life at the time that he was vacationing and made the purchase. He mentioned having a child. He also mentioned that he liked the idea of the cold plunge because it has "lots of benefits" in a "very small amount of time", "making it fit with my life." Was he finding that he had a lot less time to exercise / focus on his health because of family life? Was he busier elsewhere? Was there something going on with his health that was causing him to focus on it more at that moment? Why did he feel the need at that point in time to push his health to the next level? It seemed like you provided opportunities for him to talk about that, so there might not be anything there, but was curious about this while watching the interview.
- Liked your idea of focusing initially on going after the middle / bottom of the funnel people -- those like Martin who already bought into the idea of cold exposure / cold plunges as having health benefits -- and trying to shorten their timeline / get them to purchase, rather than focusing on trying to convince people that cold plunges are a great idea.
> “So would the company be able to reduce a lot of anxiety around the purchase by emphasizing / focusing only on outdoor use...?”
I think there’s an opportunity here, but it’s coupled with another anxiety related to having to do this outside in the cold weather (will cold weather make this thing even worse?). Your idea has a lot of merit: “Almost everyone puts these outside, and don’t worry about weather - here’s why it won’t matter …”
Your additional comment here nails it: “Additionally, the company could provide tips for how to get in and out of the tub in cold/bad weather environments in a way that doesn't add to the misery (gear to wear, heat lamps nearby, placing it near walls or using things to create wind barriers, etc.).” Exactly!
> “It sounded like the tub that Martin bought has a temperature adjustment feature. I'd been picturing tubs that are full of lots and lots of ice, plus a little water, so I hadn't considered that you could control the temperature of the water. So the company could point out that you can set it at 60 degrees and still get value from it. Then as you get used to it, you could move it down to 55 degrees, and so on.”
There are a few different comment threads going on here where folks are talking about making sure that we don’t stress out about getting every answer to every question in a single interview - it’s okay if we’re debriefing and we realize that we didn’t dig into something! This is such a great example of that. Throughout the entire entire conversation with Martin it never occurred to me to ask whether he could reduce the anxiety around possibly returning it by just increasing the temperature to something the he could bare. I think this tells us two things.
1) Martin talked a lot about the anxiety around the return, and this idea never came up, so I don’t think he saw it as an option.
2) In subsequent interviews, if the anxiety around returns/stigma/etc comes up, we should find a way to ask about this, hopefully without introducing the idea and biasing the interview. Something like, “are you thinking about what will make you feel successful here? A certain number of plunges per week? A certain duration? A certain temperature?” Even with that question we’re introducing some concepts, but if we worked at it we could probably get into the topic without biasing things too much.
> “One thing I wanted to learn more about was what was going on in Martin's life at the time that he was vacationing and made the purchase.” Another great area to explore! Did his mindset shift while on vacation? Also, it feels like health and wellness is his hobby (since he’s a personal friend I can cheat and confirm this). So did he just have more time to spend on his hobby since he was vacationing and away from work? All great topics to dive into.
This is another one where I bagged a lot of pushes - triggers like the recommendation from a trusted party (first the workshop, then Wim Hoff, then Rhonda, and finally his coach who all pushed to say this is a thing he needs). There was also the push from the time factor - "when I'm running out of time to get this delivered before the weather changes", coupled with the pull of "so I can build a habit of using it before it's miserable outside".
I wonder whether there's a boost if they changed the business model to renting cold plunges vs selling - this would make it less of a challenge for Martin to persuade his wife to let him buy it, and the high anxiety of admitting failure and getting them to come back to take the plunge makes it a sticky product. To me it felt more like he was worried about admitting failure amongst the network of coach, Rhonda, and others he would have told "I'm getting a cold plunge and committing to this lifestyle" more than calling the firm that sold him the product. All that social anxiety makes this sticky, even if he didn't use the product once he rented it.
I did a quick google for these things and the imagery shows serene people in plunge pools in natural settings - I bet they could drive more sales showing normal people using these in home/garden settings to make it easier to imagine the tub sitting in a home like your own.
The rental idea is fantastic. Emotionally and socially there's a lot of contrast between "I tried it and decided that it wasn't for me" (what renting allows for), and "I fully invested in it and failed." (the all-in nature of buying).
I think in this space (and I'd want to run more interviews and really dig in here) that the commitment is less about the financial spend and more about the "social expense" of telling all your health and fitness clique that you're "taking the plunge" and then having to admit that you called the firm up and asked them to take their pool back because you weren't able to "hack it".
As a result I think you can reduce the pain of buying by making it cheap to commit to, knowing full well the real commitment is to this new lifestyle (which they will loathe backing out of).
From listening to Martin I'd imagine he'd rather carry on paying to rent a plunge pool and not use it than to have to admit he gave up this to his coach and others.
It also points to an opportunity for the company to create networking spaces/interact and engage with the cold plunge community on Reddit etc as there's a lot of social pressure around this purchase.
Cool story! 😉
I get the idea of accelerating people who are actively looking by better addressing anxieties - there are some funnels which seem to be extra long in time (barista-style espresso machines, for example, take years). I also see that we can do better marketing and help people to progress from passive to active looking by addressing pushes we know they have.
One thing I was questioning myself about when doing research was: should I spend more time on the outcomes they experienced (expected & unexpected) after purchase? Because I need those research items to retain existing customers, to actually help them form a new habit. Oftentimes in Jobs, we focus on the moment of purchase and the forces leading to it to then improve the funnel. But every interview can also generate a lot of data to improve my existing customer relationships and to drive retention. But it is very hard to capture both sides of the story in one interview.
How do you see this? Were there projects where you maybe focused more on the actual experience than on the timeline and forces? Or did you maybe split your interviewee group based on that given focus? Or is this a strategy discussion before research?
Looking forward to the next stories!
Thanks, Jan
I think you have it right. Most people that I talk to feel like they lack demand-side tools that they can reach for to help them build something new and get people to initially adopt it (switching). In comparison, it feels like there is an abundance of techniques that we have for understanding satisfaction of existing customers (customer success feedback, support team feedback, satisfaction surveys, etc). Because of that, I tend to put a lot of emphasis on switching in the interviews that I share. Personally I just refocus the interview based on the problem that I'm working on. If I need to figure out adoption it's all about the forces and timeline of the initial purchase. If I want to know more about value after the purchase I move through that part quickly (first 15 minutes or so), and then move onto the post-purchase behavior. When do they reach for the product and when do they ignore it an reach for something else.